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-   -   Afghanistan (http://www.wowwomen.com/boards/showthread.php?t=2048)

Jennifer23 February 4th, 2011 09:06 PM

Afghanistan
 
George W. Bush pushed us into Afghanistan to get Bin Laden, and then said, no - we're going into Iraq. So, he created 2 wars that didn't have to be created. Iraq wasn't behind the 9/11 attacks, and yet look at all the money we've wasted there.
I voted for Obama, but we have to get out of there. It's time for us to stop being the World's policeman. Let's get out of Iraq and Afghanistan. Just look at the Middle East now!

Elusive Unicorn February 4th, 2011 11:43 PM

Sigh it will not happen. It's all about the oil. If they didn't have it, we would pull our guys home so fast your head would spin. Militry and goverment are all about spending money. Look how much they spend on hammer, nails, and toilet seats. Gesh if they went to Lowes or Wal*mart it would cost them less. Could just see a guy at Wal*mart looking for out of stock hammer. Sale assocate tells them the genral came in and bought them all here and at the warehouse. I realy wish they would pull our troops. The PR from this is making us look bad.

Wolf_angel February 5th, 2011 07:21 AM

I understand where both of you are coming from Jennifer and Elusive. Yet please remember what's it about...The Oil! The military are doing what they are ordered to do. I should know since being a former army brat; army wife; and now an Navy Mom. I agree the USA shouldnt be the policemen of the World yet many of those same people from those countries are escaping here to the USA. There are some who dont want no part of their country and etc yet there are a few who are for their country. I figure that if those of the secondary leave their country to come here, well they can go back! The USA was started from people leaving the home country because of persecutions and etc.
Thus said I stand with leaving those countries Iraq and Afghanistan. Come home and take care of our own first! Yet I do support my son and others like him for doing what they are told to do. Hugs BTW not meant to offend anyone, its just my honest opinion! :)

Jennifer23 February 5th, 2011 12:52 PM

Wolfie, you're totally right, and I've always supported the men and women that are doing their jobs as military personnel. I just wish that they wouldn't have to . . . .

Elusive Unicorn February 5th, 2011 11:20 PM

((((((((Wolife))))))))) I do support our troops and pray for their safety. You are right in they are doing as they are told. They are soldiers and follow orders. We have some that are worriors. These are the ones that think and sometimes question orders. We as a people do not raise worriors anymore. Soldiers are easier for them to tell what to do. Well I am jealous that they get to blow things up and get paid for it. That has to be a great stress releaver. I had some people that I used to work with and we dicussed what would be the most stress releving jobs. So when you are realy mad at someone imagine if you had a job were you destrored a whole building. That would be so much better then taking a deep breath.

Wolf_angel February 5th, 2011 11:26 PM

(((( Jennifer Elusive ))))))))))) Thanks! LOL Blowing things up! LOL

Jennifer23 February 6th, 2011 08:05 PM

Wolfie, I love/hate politics. That's why I've been saying do away with the political parties and just vote for people! Vote for people with no party affiliation, but because they just stand for the stuff that we, as individuals support.

Elusive Unicorn February 7th, 2011 08:50 AM

/me still wants to put all da politions on a rocket into outerspace. Dang NASA and their budget cuts!!!!

Wolf_angel February 8th, 2011 09:26 AM

Tis what I do when voting! LOL Elusive

moniker February 14th, 2011 01:53 PM

The problem with Iraq and Afghanistan is that we can't just leave. You can't run into a country, depose the government, blow up the infrastructure and then walk away. With Syrian terrorists attacking civilians and hoping to gain power, we need to re-establish a government that will work. While we worry about things like stability, other problems also need to be addressed...basic stuff you and I take for granted. Theip sanitation system doesn't exist...trash piles up in the streets and so does sewage. Saddam had filled in a wetland/stream in part of northern Iraq in order to control the residents, we're trying to reinstate that water so the residents can have their own. Railroad tracks are destroyed, buildings collapsed, schools partially falling apart. We cannot leave it this way.

In Afghanistan, the police force (especially in Kabul) is incredibly broke. Pay for cops is non-existant, so in order to make the job more appealing they stopped doing background checks. Because of this, insurgents with al Qaeda have enlisted in the police force, stole uniforms and body armor, then fled back to the mountains. Like Iraq, they also have falling infrastructure (war-related).


Should we have gone in? Is Bush a war-monger? Aren't we just there for oil? These questions don't matter. The question that matters is, "How can we leave a country we destroyed and pretend nothing happened?"

Elusive Unicorn February 14th, 2011 03:57 PM

I guess that is a good question. So lets say we fix everything. Then their economy is booming. Will they pay us back or like Japan are they going to stiff us the bill? I know it sounds weird but there are so many countries that owe the US money. If the ones that are back on their feet would pay us back then we would have more money to help with things. Yes we should fix what we broke. Yet we need to teach them to stand on their own. Give a man a fish and thats one meal. Teach a man to fish and he could feed the whole village.

moniker February 14th, 2011 06:44 PM

I think our now, now, now world has us forgetting just how long things take. We are certainly teaching them to fish...the US is not an imperialist nation; it prefers to have stake in some countries but not actually govern them. The Iraqi people are excited to vote and do vote. They are excited to enlist in the Iraqi Army and do so. They are excited to be part of the police force and they do. In fact, much of the actual fighting now is done by the Iraqis, with the US as a helpful "show of force" to prevent a running over of the fledgling nation.

As for paying us back...I don't think they owe us anything. We were the ones that destroyed their country, their infrastructure, their government. That was all us. We owe it to them to rebuild...you break it, you buy it. Iraq owes us nothing. We're the ones that shat all over their country, not the other way around. That's like paying for the medical expenses for a stranger you hit with your car, then asking, "So...now that I paid for your medical expenses, what are you going to do for me?" The person would look at you like you're crazy because the only reason the medical expenses existed was because you ran them over. The only reason we're spending so much time and effort rebuilding Iraq is because we destroyed it. How can you say that Iraq owes us anything? How do you see the situation?

Elusive Unicorn February 14th, 2011 07:30 PM

Okay but what about Japan? We did bomb them and brake some of their stuff but they hit us frist. So they should have to pay us back. By the way have you seen what we are owed by other countries. It could be used for health care, schools and other such things here. We have homeless here and we need reform at home,but if all our money is tied up overseas then what do we do? Fine we can give everyone else our money and to heck with the downtroden at home. We should fix our own country too. We may be a power house but we are no longer number one at everything. There are too many thimgs to list. We get so worried about everyone else that we forget to worry about ourselves. Man just like my kids worried about someone else and not paying attention to the trouble they are getting into.

moniker February 14th, 2011 07:56 PM

We should fix our country as well, I'm not saying that we shouldn't. What I am saying is that we cannot run into a country, blow it to hell, and then walk away. I think that bringing up Japan is irrelevant here because we're talking about Afghanistan and Iraq...which are two very different situations than Japan attacking us and we retaliate. But if you want to bring up Japan:
-we removed their ability to start a war again, making it unconstitutional
-we removed the military power from their leader, making him a symbol instead
-all the territory Japan acquired after 1894 was taken away and given back to the people or to the allies. We actually still have a duty station in Okinawa, which we used to own (gave it back to the Japanese in the 1970's)
-we executed hundreds of military officers after they were tried for war crimes
-we forced Japan to adopt human rights
-land ownership was removed
-we used them for our anti-communist goals, stationing more troops in Japan, posting anti-communist propaganda, and even trying to create a military force that we had said was unconstitutional

In other words, we didn't just hand them money. We took their land, land they had acquired long before WWII, re-wrote their constitution, stripped them of military power, took part of their country for a military duty station and even tried to use them in the Cold War. Japan became an arm of the United States, not just a new, free Japan.

Elusive Unicorn February 14th, 2011 09:16 PM

Sigh anyway you look at it getting out will not be as easy as going in. Clean up is always a b****. Just ask a maid. Sorry if I offend you in any way. I do like to debate sometimes I get carried away. If we did all that to them I do not even want to think what they would have done to us if we had lost. It is likily that we will not be out of Afghanistan for years.So we sould just suport our troops and pray they come home safe. Hopefuly when we do get out it will be a better country.

Jennifer23 February 14th, 2011 10:40 PM

All I'm going to say is that it's time for us to back off, and let other countries determine their own destinies. Just look at all the people we wanted to put in power, and how it's turned out. Let other people work it out without us meddling . It's their country, not ours.

moniker February 15th, 2011 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elusive Unicorn (Post 61912)
Sigh anyway you look at it getting out will not be as easy as going in. Clean up is always a b****. Just ask a maid. Sorry if I offend you in any way. I do like to debate sometimes I get carried away. If we did all that to them I do not even want to think what they would have done to us if we had lost. It is likily that we will not be out of Afghanistan for years.So we sould just suport our troops and pray they come home safe. Hopefuly when we do get out it will be a better country.

I wasn't offended at all :) Please bear in mind that I do not like war. I do not like the fact that we spend billions of dollars on other countries when we need help in our own. Don't get me wrong, I do not believe we should hold the hands of other countries. I do, however, believe that we should clean up what we ruined.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Jennifer23 (Post 61913)
All I'm going to say is that it's time for us to back off, and let other countries determine their own destinies. Just look at all the people we wanted to put in power, and how it's turned out. Let other people work it out without us meddling . It's their country, not ours.

It is their country, but when you're struggling to stay healthy because there's shit and piss in the street, contaminants in your water and food is scarce, it's pretty hard to think about making a proper government or protecting yourself from invaders.

Imagine if I destroyed your home...I came into your town and obliterated everything within a 500 mile radius. Your water is contaminated with dirt, sulfur and dead bodies. There's so much death you have no idea what to do with it. You can't find a steady source of food, you have no place to put your trash, your urine, your feces, you have a crumbling home (if you have one at all). Perhaps one or more people in your family have died, and the blasts may have left you without a limb.
Now imagine I say, "Well, this isn't my problem to rebuild. This is YOUR town, you guys figure it out."
With what resources? With what sanity? With what time? Your day is spent surviving, not attempting to rebuild a torn government.


It really feels like I'm the only person replying who says we have to fix the country because we destroyed the country, but everyone else thinks we just need to leave. Can you ladies tell me what you think is going on over there that it's stable and healthy enough for us to walk away?

Jennifer23 February 15th, 2011 07:27 PM

Hi Moniker, and we're in total agreement here. Since we destroyed these towns and cities, we have a moral obligation to the people there to rebuild them. I guess what I was talking about was more in the future. We have to learn from our past mistakes and not do the same things in the future. We can't, and shouldn't police the World.

PriscillaMS April 17th, 2012 03:36 PM

I know I've come late to this thread but I'd like to make a comment or two anyway. First point, following the first Iraq war (Bush elder - to liberate Kuwait) S. Hussein signed a treaty with the US to allow weapons inspections. Now we can argue whether liberating Kuwait was a "good" objective. But the Iraq leadership signed the treaty to end hostilities. Unfortunately S. Hussein reniged on the treaty. So GW Bush after getting 17 UM resolutions to authorize force and the approval of the US Congress, resumed the conflict due to the broken treaty. You can argue this war was ill-advised, fine. But either a treaty (contract) with the US means something or it does not. If countries can make binding agreements and then simply disregard them, what foreign policy will you be able to enforce at all. And as Julius Ceasar realized with a "divide and conquer approach" would it not be good to help try to establish a democratic country in the mid-east. My simple point is that the second gulf war stemmed from a broken treaty. GW felt this could not be tolerated. People may disagree but at what consequence down the road. My second point is he oil issue. Show me evidence that the US stole or took oil from any arab country. Let's not belittle the sacrifices the US and it's armed servicemen have sustained. I am for smaller government politically, but I see no evidence the government or the people of America have profited from these wars in any way.

Jennifer23 April 17th, 2012 07:52 PM

I support what Bush Sr. did. He was right to go in, stopped the Iraqui advance to Kuwait, and then got out. When Iraq made another threat toward Kuwait during the Clinton administration, Clinton just put tanks on the border. He stopped a war before it started. W. decided not to do that. I love this John Kerry quote: "You should only go to war when you have to go to war, not because you want to."

Wolf_angel April 18th, 2012 07:57 AM

Personally I believe we can assist with the rebuilding and clean up of the War Zones. Americans have done it since WWII. Germany debt to the USA was forgiven. Now look at that country. However, I believe we should strive toward a balance. While helping others we should also help ourselves. This way we are not DEPRIVING our own Country while assisting another. Just a thought. Not meant to offend. Have a great day!:)

Jennifer23 April 19th, 2012 10:06 PM

You didn't offend me, Wolfie. And balance is the key. For years I've said that we should be neutral in the Middle East and treat every country in that region the same. If an Arab country does something that is wrong, we should address that; at the same time, if Israel does something that's wrong, we should treat that country the same way.
Fair is fair.

PriscillaMS April 23rd, 2012 03:21 PM

I don't think any of us here are really all that far apart. I can't disagree with the Kerry quote. But I don't feel the second Iraq war was re-initiated on a "want to" basis. Again, a treaty either means something or it does not. The Iraq leaders broke the treary when they would not allow weapons inspections. Goggle the UN reports. I won't push my argument further, it is just that with diplomacy there must be a threat of the stick, especially in the middle east.


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