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Old March 16th, 2001, 07:06 AM   #16
antiana
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Well I am lost, evidently I need to read more or something.... I read the posts above but am still in the dark.

How does biology give bigots more room? We are talking genetics right?

Just asking... hey maybe bigots are biological?
Oh, maybe I don't want to go there... lol
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Old March 17th, 2001, 02:15 PM   #17
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ROFL!! ((((Antiana))))

Well think about Hitler and other eugenicists. Their notion has been to get rid of defective gene-pools. So, if homosexuality is biological it can be eradicated.

Course, one interesting thing about the so-called "gay gene" is that it's a male thing they "discovered" no-one's found any lesbian gene yet, so far as I've heard.

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Old March 21st, 2001, 07:40 AM   #18
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Oh, I feel so dumb! I did know that, it just didn't connect.

Question! Are "they" only testing males, as they usually do in the medical field.

Maybe someone could point me in the right direction for reading material. ty in advance if so.

Spring is here!
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Old March 21st, 2001, 08:18 AM   #19
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Here's an interesting article about a study that pretty much disproves the "Gay Gene" theory.

Notice, too, that the study was also done with women (particularly twins). The twin results are the most interesting, I think.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/l...ene990422.html

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Old March 21st, 2001, 03:59 PM   #20
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thank you for the link.
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Old March 22nd, 2001, 06:28 AM   #21
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Great link Liam...tho I wish they offered numbers instead of percentages on the one study...52 percent seems high but it depends on the sample size. It doesn't seem any of the previous studies had sample sizes relative to the general population. Thus my point about more money for the researchers to "prove" their theories. ( If I took the time to learn the eye-rolling icon, I would put one here lol)

What I want to know tho...is what exactly constitutes homosexual behavior in fruit flies and how they know the little buggers are exhibiting them?

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Old March 23rd, 2001, 08:16 PM   #22
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Smile

At the risk of suffering from foot in mouth syndrome in the very near future (not having followed Liam's link), I would like to point out that most studies will disclose N= an indication of the total number of subjects in the study. I am leary of any study that doesn't disclose all data. (Again, I have yet to read the article, so don't shoot me just yet! LOL)

That aside, I would like to extend my appreciation. A very interesting thread indeed.

In addition, I found Stophie's post earlier to be of particular interest. Certainly, I don't buy into the idea of conscious choice, nor do I subscribe to the "genetics" malarkey, but the point raised that the potential exists for anyone to decide to cross the fence, as it were, is a good one.

I tend to doubt that we are all entirely one thing or another (don't shoot me, I'm only the piano player! LOL) and I have known some straight people who have felt attraction for members of their own gender, and vice versa. I have a lesbian friend who feels attraction for -- and has had relations with -- men.

I think that to call these "moments of weakness" or "betrayals of one's true self" is utterly preposterous, myself. The only thing I really concern myself with here is that both parties derive happiness from their relationships/encounters, although our socialization teaches us to over-analize, often in an empirical manner... (Oooh, don't even get me started on that one!)

I don't believe I -- or anyone -- has the right to chastise or condone. We should all simply be. And -- better yet -- be happy. (Antiana put it very well!)

Just presenting what I hope might foster further discussion -- not argument -- on this subject.

Thank you for allowing me to participate!
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Old March 28th, 2001, 10:11 AM   #23
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I came out just over a year ago and I am happier then I have ever been. I always knew that I liked women in a way that I knew was different then just the "normal" friendship. I thought that my yearnings for closeness to a woman was just a fantasy thing. I didn't grow up knowing anyone gay so I was unsure of all the feelings I had. I tried being married and I had two wonderful children from that union. Something inside still didn't feel right though...I ached for something and I just didn't know what.

In Feb of 2000...I stumbled into Lesbianspace, curious as to what it was all about. Well from that first night and meeting some really great people I just knew that accepting myself as a lesbian was going to be alright. I can't even begin to tell you what a snowball affect it had. I came out to my friends and family not long after. Come to find out no one was all that surprised (and btw I am very femme..not that it makes a difference but I don't have the "classic" lesbian look). The most surprising thing for me was having my Dad telling me he is really "alright" with me being a lesbian..the man has never approved of any choices I have made.

So here I am feeling totally filled with hope and dreams for the first time in my life. I feel comfortable in my own skin and wondering how it took me so long to get here. I am not sure if it is in my genes or not. All I know is that I am happier now that my partner is a woman and I am free to love her.
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Old March 28th, 2001, 10:45 AM   #24
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Biology or choice.. I think in a way it can be a combination of both. Let me explain!
If I were to sit and psychoanalyze events that happened in my life as a young child.. being abandoned by my father at 1yr old..being molested by a male relative at age 5.... being raped by a man at age 15..being abused by my ex husband at age 20... it is no wonder that at age 28 I am in a wonderfully happy relationship with a woman! But for me to sit here and be able to say that those are the soul reasons for my being a lesbian.. I can not!! Yes, I am quite sure they played some contributing factor in it all though.
But you all know what.... when it comes right down to it... I could really care less why or how I became the way I am because I am happy with the life I have now and the woman I am with. Without those earlier events I would not be the person I am today and perhaps have even taken the ummm "straighter" path. But I am glad I took the path I did.. whether I was led by some inner benevolent force.. or whether I made that choice.. consciously or subconsciously!!

















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Old March 31st, 2001, 02:05 AM   #25
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i agree

ok, everything i've read so far, i agree with. while ideally it shouldn't matter whether sexual orientation is choice or biology, in this day & age it does. i personally think it is a combination of genetics & choices. however, i don't think that it was just my choices that led me to be gay. i believe that the choices other people in my life made had some effect on me also. for instance, my parents are very accepting & always taught us to be true to ourselves. they also did not preach that homosexuality was wrong. these choices that they made in their child raising techniques enabled me to be more comfortable about being a lesbian. does this theory make sense? i'm not sure i'm voicing it as clearly as it exists in my mind. the only think that scares me about this subject is the research being done on genes, combined with the newfound scientific ability to manipulate fetal genetics in a manner that could possibly eliminate any future gayness. life would suck if we were never given the opportunity to live it.
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Old March 31st, 2001, 03:36 AM   #26
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The whole genetic thing is just scary. Suppose there is a gene for homosexuality.. talk about ethical questions..

Could a woman have an abortion because she doesn't want a homosexual child?

If you can genetically engineer people to not be gay, could you do it so they *are* gay?

What if a lesbian couple only wants a homosexual child..?

And could a doctor refuse to do any/all of that?

::scratching head::
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Old March 31st, 2001, 05:45 AM   #27
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Huee:

Your post was very articulate. :-)

Tammy, you raise some very interesting questions about bio-ethics which I am sure will lead to further discussion.

I find it so utterly strange that while we look back on the lessons of Hitler and Pol Pot and other eugenicists, we are perhaps nearing a similar point in our evolutionary history when faced with these questions.

I recall reading Brave New World during my teens years and I wonder now whether we are actually living it. I shudder to think how humankind will address those questions.

The potential for wrongfully playing God is frightening.

Why can't we simply embrace diversity, live, and let live? Why must be so empirical and obsessive in our desire to quantify, qualify, and explain everything. Some things just are.


(Okay, my hokey rant is done.)
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Old April 16th, 2001, 09:14 AM   #28
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(((((((((((((((((((HUEE)))))))))))))))))))))

I am so glad you came to visit us here. One day I'll show you how to get to the chat rooms...won't that be scary

Luv yas

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Old April 17th, 2001, 09:49 AM   #29
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"Some things just are." Well said WA hun!!



If you look into anything deep enough you can find the reasoning and the "why" behind it, but do we all really want a life right out of George Orwells "1984". You know the whole.. BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING!
When dealing with genetics you always end up walking that thin line of being either medicinally or morally right. I took a genetics class my senior year in high school. It was about the only class I really even payed attention too..lol...well it fascinated me. I wrote my term paper on human cloning and its bio-ethical effects. Needless to say I had no problems finding issues of discussion for that paper! LOL

The biggest question is I think.. Where do we draw the line?? The DNA and gene research in the last 30 years has made great progress in isolating genes for birth defects and many illnesses...but where do you draw the line as to what is deserving of genetic intervention and what is not?? Who has that right to decide for everyone else?? Who gets to in other words play God with millions of future lives??

To add to a couple that Tammy mentioned....

Say for example you could go to your Doctor.. go thru and pick all the traits and attributes of that child.. right down from sex, hair color, eye color, height. You could "ready order" your perfect child. Would you treat that child the same as the child you carried for nine months and was able to really make that mother child bond with?? Would that whole process eventually lead to the break down of a traditional nuturing home??


Big issues.. and ones I am glad are not sitting upon my shoulders that is for sure!! This is the Millenium and over the years on this planet we have made enormous progress as a species but will that same progress be our own downfall??? I guess time will tell!
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Old May 10th, 2001, 09:14 AM   #30
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Here's a new twist ... some "researcher" at Columbia University has done what he claims is a "study" (looks pretty dodgy to me) finding that gay men and lesbians can change into straight ppl, should they wish to.

Now then - what amuses me about this is that presumably that would work both ways,huh? So heterosexual people could change too ... <b>We Recruit!</b>

Here's a news report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/hea...00/1320743.stm
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