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Old May 10th, 2001, 09:28 AM   #31
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Welll.... it's no secret that when it comes to me, some [names omitted to protect the innocent *wfeg*] you are only one recruit short of a toaster oven. *LOL*

Again, a very interesting discussion!
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Old May 10th, 2001, 01:10 PM   #32
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/me picks up that comment and runs with it WA!! *eg*

And I agree, a very interesting discussion. It is also very refreshing to see that we have ladies from ummmm well both sides of the fence sharing thier views! It gives me hope that perhaps one day everyone can gather at the above said "fence", greet each other with a smile, shake hands and walk away friends. A girl can dream anyways!

"How far that little candle throws his beam. So shines a good deed in a naughty world." ~~ William Shakespeare: Merchants of Venice
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Old May 10th, 2001, 03:22 PM   #33
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i am very confused about the suspicion around the biology theory. i do think that often homosexuality is genetic, but i don't see how that opens the door for some ***** hitler-style to decide that it's ok to clean the gene pool. that is a political and ethical issue that stems far beyond just homosexuals, and that should be addressed as its own issue. i am suspicious about obfuscating information just for the sake of protecting ourselves. the more accurate the information we have, in the end, the better we can defend ourselves.

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Old July 5th, 2001, 11:04 AM   #34
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What an absolutely invaluble discussion! I have a lot of feelings about this subject. As a "straight, but not narrow-minded" individual, I have numerous gay and lesbian friends. I adore these people, in the same way that I adore some of my straight friends, but until I wrote that sentence, I didn't divide them in that way in my own head. I simply adore my friends. But I would be lying if I didn't say that I recognize that my gay and lesbian friends are up against some very different obstacles in this society than the ones I face. But then so are my single parent friends, my black friends, my very short friend, my very fat friend, my sickeningly thin friend, my fair-skinned friend, and my Jewish friends. They all approach their challenges differently. I do not want to make light of their challenges, any of them. I just know that most of them have made peace with the fact that they do face them.

As to the choice vs. nature argument, I don't know how I feel. I suppose I choose to believe that the fact that my gay friends are gay was not a "choice" in the way that coloring your hair, or having your ears pierced is. I think that I would resent their choosing something that causes so much heartache for them. Yes, most of them are in some sort of rewarding relationship now, but all of them have had pain brought about because of their sexuality. But in the end, I do have a lot of fears concerning the "research" into the supposed genetic link to homosexuality. I think that it can only lead to unpleasant, frightening things. If we can show that it is genetic, we can control it. If we can control it, it opens the door to say that it is better or worse than heterosexuality, and isn't that what we want to work against? That seems to me to be the greatest danger in the whole discussion.
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Old July 10th, 2001, 05:49 AM   #35
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(((((((sparrow)))))))) What a lovely post. Thank you

Y'see I am a lesbian, and I do believe that I did choose to be a lesbian. I was heterosexual, and whilst I wasn't terribly happy being heterosexual, I wasn't wholly miserable either. Then I got interested in the position of women in this world, and as a result of that I decided to spend my time, my life and my love - basically, with women. I do not see myself as bisexual because I will not be going back to heterosexuality. I have made that choice. I do see myself as having made a positive and strong choice to love women.

I suppose that one of the reasons that I tend to resist the biological arguments (apart from those we've already talked about) is that - if this is a choice then there really is no *us* and *them*, there are just people, who can choose to be how we want to be.
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Old July 11th, 2001, 10:53 AM   #36
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/me stands and applauds sparrow and Quiet

I never thought about it that way Quiet...choosing to be with women. I too was heterosexual at one time in my life. I wasn't miserable yet I will say that I always felt something was missing. Not understanding why I didn't feel right about my life, about my relationships, its as if I didn't fit in. When I finally came to terms with who I was and what I wanted then things fell into place for me. I like who I am now and I won't change a thing of how it all happened for me.

Even though I know that the chances of the world just accepting people for who they are slim that is what I hope happens in the future. Choosing to spend my life with a woman is just one part of who I am. And the more I think about it the more I realize that because I happier that way it affects how I do everything. I am happier so what I contribute to work, my family, my friends, to the world is all that much better.
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Old July 14th, 2001, 12:10 PM   #37
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Look out, soapbox.....

This is a topic I've dealt with extensively, in many different places at many different times... I'm always fascinated by the points raised.

I did not choose to be lesbian. In my humble opinion, and in my case, I believe that the only choice I made is to accept, not to deny, who I am.

A cousin once compared my hassles with some of the family concerning my lesbianism with her sister having troubles from her parents for dating a married man. I see it as totally different.....something one does as compared with something one IS. For me, being a lesbian is not a behaviour, it is an identity. I could (Goddess forbid) spend the rest of my life without any sort of a relationship, and I would still be a lesbian. I am a lesbian because I find social, emotional, spiritual, political, physical AND sexual fulfillment with women. I simply cannot *choose* to make my heart leap for a certain person. It just happens.

Now, whether we can go from that to a "lesbian gene" is quite another thing. Maybe the closest thing I can compare it to is handedness. The majority of the people in the world are right-handed. At (disgraceful) times in history, being left-handed was seen as a sign of the devil, children who tried to write with their left hands were tied, tortured, and sometimes even killed. Today we know that we simply find it natural to write with one hand or the other.....as we find it natural to love someone of the same or the opposite gender. Being right-handed doesn't mean one *can't* write with the left, and vice-versa....and yes, there are people who truly are ambitextrous. Maybe someday society will become as enlightened about our emotional preference as it is about our handedness?

And someday it just won't matter....
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Old July 14th, 2001, 12:30 PM   #38
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I totally agree with you Chana, someday it just won't matter!

That is what I hope for more than anything. I am not straight, I am not Lesbian, I am me. My sexual preference is a "choice" of sorts, not because I consciously made the decision that "today and the rest of my days I shall only be with women", not at all, but because I woke up one day and realized that I have MANY different sides, MANY different preferences, and above all, I CAN'T HELP WHO I FALL IN LOVE WITH. Since that day, I have made a "choice" to seek out relationships with women but I am "queer but not narrow" as they say *lol*. When the right person comes along, it won't matter what the outward appearence is because as far as I can tell, the plumbing all works the same way regardless.

The idea of genetic altering as a means to be rid of or overload the population with homosexual beings is a scary prospect. I own my body thank you very much, and the thought of someone taking away my right to choose what I want to do with it is the scariest thought in the world. I love that I am gifted with the ability to LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR...... if I were to ever lose that I would no longer exist.

Ok thats my 2000 cents worth.
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Old July 14th, 2001, 02:42 PM   #39
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i just read a statistic that said more lesbians are left-handed than right & that their ring fingers tend to be longer than their index fingers ... both of which are true for me. don't know what it means scientifically, other than i really must be a lesbian (lol)!
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Old September 1st, 2001, 01:26 PM   #40
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Huee - that must be true..... i'm ambidexterous (see above post)

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Old September 1st, 2001, 05:35 PM   #41
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I believe the question is not one of biology,for that there is no choice.However life is about making choices,and we all make lifestyle choices.What we choose to do about the person we are regardless of our biological makeup IS i believe a conscious decision.That decision is influenced by many factors,education,self-esteem,family support etc etc.Also for many of us who come out later in life,it's not about suddenly deciding that we're gay,lets not kid ourselves here,it's something we've always known,and it often takes a traumatic event of somekind to move us out of our comfort zones.I do believe that eventually we will become the person we need to be .
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Old September 27th, 2001, 05:10 PM   #42
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(((((((ALL)))))) hmmm. I don't know if being gay is a choice or gene thing myself. I "knew" in elemtary school I was "different". Part of me says it's genetic part says it's choice , part circumstances. I was molested when I was 4 by an uncle. I was later molested by several men including my uncle again from the age of about 8 till I was about 14. When I was 16 my my family came to me and asked if I was a lesbian. I didn't think that no one knew. I thought I had hid having two girfriends ,, one at 15 , the other I was 16. I guess I didn't. LOL. After that there was no need to hide who I was. I chose not to date anyone till I was 18. When I was 18 I started dating women. I was pretty much happy with who I was with . Then I hit 25. I felt i had been with women because of the molest issue only. So I did the "straight" thing. I was comfortable in a sense but yet I still longed for women. Almost 2 years ago I started dating women again I told my youngest sister of my "choice" she said " Shawn, I have always known you were more happier with women." I still don't know if I am a lesbian by choice, biology, or circumstance.
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Old October 28th, 2001, 05:53 PM   #43
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I have to agree with some of the comments, particularly that you just can't help who you fall in love with. I had some pretty strange crushes in school, on people I never ever thought I would like. And I agree that it doesn't matter, choice, biology, circumstances - we are who we are and eventually most of us allow ourselves to find out and develop who that person is. I'm just glad that I live in this country at this time so I am able to do that. I KNOW I would be the worst rabble-rouser in some societies in earlier times, lol! I doubt I would be allowed to live.

I also was not happy in my marriage. I always knew somehow that that was not where I was ultimately supposed to be, although I am profoundly grateful for my children. I only wish I had ended it earlier to save a lot of the pain. And as for the arguments that ultra-conservative right-wing homophobic "Christian" hypocrites offer, I notice they forget the second rule of Christianity, which is "Love thy neighbor as thyself," meaning, you would not torture or disown or humiliate or kill yourself over something you don't agree with.... ok, that would be pretty surreal, and you would probably be locked up if you publicy announced you did not agree with yourself on something. LOL!

All my philosophical offerings over <g>, I want to share this with you. It is both humorous and thought-provoking, and some day, when my parents and sisters and brothers choose to face me head-on over the issue, I'll bring it up - I won't get many laughs out of them, but I'm sure you all will like it. I don't remember where I found it but I couldn't resist saving it.


1. When and how did you decide to become straight?
2. What caused you to choose to become straight?
3. Is it possible that your being straight is just a phase?
4. Does your being straight stem from a neurotic fear of the same sex?
5. If you have never slept with someone of the same sex, don't you think it is possible that you just need a good gay lover to "straighten" you out?
6. Why do you straight people feel compelled to seduce others into your own lifestyle?
7. Why do you insist on flaunting your straightness by holding hands and kissing in public?
8. Would you really want your children to be straight, knowing how hard it is to have a good straight relationship? (Considering that the divorce rate is now 51%)
9. Do you consider it safe to expose your children to straight teachers, since the overwhelming majority of child molesters are straight?
10. How can we survive if we keep on reproducing? (Overpopulation is the number one health concern in the world today)
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Old October 31st, 2001, 05:27 PM   #44
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I'm 18 yrs old, and the way i came 'out' was my mother found a card from my g/f in my dresser drawer.
She questioned me on it, and I owned up to the letter.
And after that day nothing has been mentioned about it.

The only time she does is when she is mad, and says things like "No you can't ride with me in the car.... walk, I won't have a lesbian in my car"
She has said worse of course, but nothing I care to mention myself.
Is there anyway of getting past this? In 2 weeks I'm moving out of state to be with my g/f. My mom has a hint about whats going on...She knows I'm leaving, just skeptical about what I'll be doing after I'm gone, and who I will be with.
Is this relationship fixable? Or am i doomed to being mistreated, and criticized.

Hello Frum Fla !
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Old January 18th, 2002, 04:22 PM   #45
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Thumbs down HOMOSEXUAL GENE research???


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